Discussion Topic: Upcoming Weapon Changes

[Drybones]

I think there are a few of us around, but honestly, I don't think we will be much help Seems like they are balancing things pretty well from a numbers perspective, but people's complaints seem to be about how the game feels. That's tough to put into math haha, but it's the most important part.

For example, you could balance things around 25 % damage mitigation for all setups, and PK would be super fast. It would feel different, and the great pkers would love it b/c fast decision making and zone knowledge would be crucial. Slow decision making would get you killed super fast, and it ups the learning curve of the game for new people. Or, you could balance things around 99% damage mitigation (a la warrior changes), and newbies would have a shot at pk and the great pkers would be bored out of their gourd. Each is balanced, but some suck more than others

Same with the 10% bash landing rate with 100 % hit rate versus 20% bash rate with 50 % hit rate. In some ways they are the same numerically (excepting parry kits), but they feel very different. Imms have a pretty thankless job in that respect, but I've been impressed with their work so far (if Flash didn't take so long to revert warrior changes it would have been great, but that's not really on them).

Full disclosure about my own personal preferences: Matt, Thom, and Aiel fighting styles were always my favorite. So I'm super pumped about hunters with parry/spears/projectiles being a somewhat viable, if squishy, kit. Charge sucks, don't need it. Get projectiles instead!

[Aureus]

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the "landed bash should equal two bashed hits". What follows is not rigorous statistics, but I think it sums up how I think about it.

Lets say your two dice rolls deal 25 damage on average, using a 18 lb weapon with 170 OB.

Scenario 1: abs vs abs > land a bash deal ~ 3 damage per hit (6 total after 85% reduction)
Scenario 2: abs vs combo -> land a bash deal ~7.5 damage per hit (15 total after 70% reduction)
Scenario 3: abs vs parry -> land a bash deal ~ 20 damage per hit (40 total after 20% reduction)
Scenario 4: abs vs dodge -> land a bash deal ~ 25 damage per hit (50 total after 0% reduction)

Part of the damage mitigation for dodge is a roughly 40% reduction (from 65% to ~25%) in bash landing rates.

Part of the damage mitigation for parry is a ~6% reduction (from 65% to 59%) in bash landing rates.

Adjusting for bash land rates at 65%, 65%, 59%, 25% for abs, combo, parry, dodge respectively, the expected damage you will deal if you run a bash timer is 1.95, 4.88, 23.6, 12.5 versus each of those setups.

Ideally, you would want the expected damage to be in the same ballpark if you want setups to be balanced somewhat. Obviously, parry setups aren't viable if they can't parry bashed hits, b/c 122 db is fairly useless vs abs weapons. With the hypothetical weapon setup, a comboer will parry bashed hits 29% of the time, a dodger will parry 37% , and a parry setup will parry 66%. This changes the expected damage output of running a bash timer to 1.95, 3.88, 8.02, and 7.875. Things get skewed dramatically worse for dodge and parry as the number of attackers increase b/c of parry split.

I think the expected damage should be slightly higher (as it currently is) versus dodge and parry to make up for the ease of getting away in low numbers PK.

Note: I picked random setups (fblade staff parry kit w/19 str 19 dex, combo I&g sword, dodge I&g), and the numbers will be different depending on your exact setup. I'm also not saying that the parry numbers are perfect, but I do not think that a landed bash == two bashed hits. Otherwise, you would have to down bashing land rates more aggressively to make dodge/parry viable.

TLDR: every setup has some form of damage mitigation, and parrying bashed hits is necessary to make parry/dodge kits viable. You can either land 10% of your bashes and land 100% of bashed hits, or 20% of your bashes and land 50% of your bashed hits. I know that I would prefer to land more bashes b/c you control the pace of the fight, and can take advantage of parry split to crush. If it doesn't make sense to you logically, watch some Jackie Chan movies. He's always on his back, dodging melee hits, and parrying with random dung he finds on the ground

This is roughly how I think about weapon balance: as damage over time, and also roughly (though with fewer variables) how we looked at weapon and bash balance this go-around.

I think there are a few of us around, but honestly, I don't think we will be much help Seems like they are balancing things pretty well from a numbers perspective, but people's complaints seem to be about how the game feels. That's tough to put into math haha, but it's the most important part.

Strongly agree here too.

FWIW the player feedback is helpful and is considered, especially when it's like this feedback or Harun's and is non-ranty and gives the changes a fair shake before jumping to conclusions. We're not responding to each post individually or trying to arrive at a collective consensus, because 1.) there's no pleasing everyone and 2.) it's just not practical, but we do keep a running list of potential issues to keep an eye on (e.g., club OB "feeling" good is on there) and are thinking about potential tweaks to.

[tekela]

I've mostly refrained from posting because I don't have much nice to say about the changes.

But in the interest of maybe being productive, what exactly is a "fair shake" when it comes to these changes?

1. Given the barrage and degree of changes, it's pretty much impossible to isolate variables to even discuss specific things. It's part of the reason why Drybones made a great post, but it's tough to isolate exactly what needs to be changed when everything is in flux. There's no real frame of reference anymore.

2. In case a "fair shake" is only extensively playing with these changes, what exactly is the point of that? Anybody who knows how absorption works could have told you how the warrior change would have turned out based on when the abs was being applied. Apply that thinking here: in very broad strokes, the major changes seem to be that you've lowered OB across the board, lowered parry on abs weapons, upped parry on dodge set ups, lowered DB (for everyone but Dreadlords ), and lowered abs on dodge equipment. The outcome is predictable: dodge becomes great 1 v 1, not viable vs. many, abs becomes extremely frustrating 1 v 1, only really effective in numbers, combo is somewhere in between, probably leaning more towards useless or overpowering, depending on the rarity of your weapon, with it being increasingly easy to leave PK when you choose to do it in low numbers situations. Sounds like that's almost exactly how it's playing out.

Would venture that this is another part of the reason why people are struggling to define what's off in the feel of the game: the individual balancing is probably mathematically sensible (with the occasional trolling 1d28 nonsense) based on pre-defined conditions for what you want each class/playstyle to be or excel at, but that comes at the cost of what has been sustaining this game for years. You need each and every set up to do be relatively self-sustaining with the edge being down to the actual individual play - it's critical because we are not League of Legends or some other game that has the PVP base to sustain or counteract PVP styles that maximize extremes, nor is there much of a comparison in terms of investment into individual characters. That means that certain stuff is going to look OP when there's a vast skill gap, but that's sort of the price you pay.

To be fair, that's not an easy balance to strike, but it feels like extreme hubris to up-end the generally careful tweaking over years that got us to a point where we had pretty decent balance with a couple of things that needed to be adjusted here and there from time to time. To do all that right in the middle of a big change and its subsequent rollback, you're not setting yourself up for much in the way of actually precise or useful feedback.

[Sanguine]

I feel like the intentions were good, the execution on some of the changes not great, and the timing extremely unfortunate. As an outsider it seems like Flash will look at and/or approve changes when he's got time on a Saturday or Sunday night. Maybe Vampa has, but I feel like we'd be better off if the guy would answer a phone call or two and have a chat about the State of Things and his involvement. Does he still care? Is he being overly protective of a game he "owns" but doesn't care about?

…Anyway, I digress. I'd wager the warrior coding changes finally got approved about the same time the weapon tweaks we're finished (non-coding), and both were implemented close to each other because the immortal staff is excited about the game, has the playerbase's best interest in mind, and wanted to get the changes they've worked so hard on implemented as soon as they were ready. That seems human to me, and is completely excusable/forgivable. Mud will move past it and be fine.

I think making sweeping weapon changes, while brave, is also OK because all the numbers and mechanics are known. If we balancing in a black box situation, you'd want to change one thing at a time. We're not, and this is just a different approach than others may have used.

I'm not great with the numbers and I rely on others to let me know what works or doesn't, but I'm not afraid of the impact the changes have made. The players that have left from it (if there even are any) must not be the kind who have weathered similar in this game in the past. Heck the warrior changes, though broken, provided a fun reprieve for a good % of the player base for a time being anyway, something that style of player might not have been able to experience otherwise.

I think constructive feedback can absolutely be given. No comparison to the past needs to happen other than to reference mechanics or balance or such; this is a completely different set of variables that everyone should be evaluating independently of previous weapon balances, for the most part.

Thanks for the hard work you imms put into this game. I don't know imms alts but certainly some of the imms names are new to me and perhaps they're just enjoying being able to affect the game in a (what they believe) positive way. I believe they are.

[Drybones]

The one at a time changes seem tough to implement, since everything is so interconnected. I wouldn't say that the years worth of careful tinkering had led to a nice variety of setups, but we were definitely used to it. The global approach they are taking seems to be the way to go, imo, if you value the ability to PK effectively and choose a different playstyle (e.g., dodge warriors). If people think dodge is currently no fun to fight against (i'd agree in a lot of ways), I'm not sure how small changes would help. But, based on the current feedback, I would think the following would make sense:

1. down dodge and parry numbers. Bashed rates will go up to say 30~40 percent, or pick a percentage that feels productive for abs users (people seem to think 20% land rate with 70% hit rate is frustrating). Do the same for parried bashed hit percentages. This will result in lower mitigation rates for dodge/parry kits.

2. To compensate, ABS % would need to be dropped on abs, combo, parry kits. This will rebalance everything, but it will speed up combat b/c everyone is taking more damage (lower mitigation across the board)

3. Then adjust weapon damage downward across the board, until average damage with the new mitigation is the same as it is today. This will slow combat back down to where it is now.

This would make dodge/parry get hit more often (making 1v1 feel less pointless for abs), and explode less often (making 1 v many less painful since getting hit by 4 people with 25 max damage << 4 people with 50 max damage). As far as channies go, I would think it would help reign in their power too, since they would be easier to hit, but die slower. I wouldn't think it would affect the rest of combat that much (since abs% drops with the damage), but people might get overwhelmed by the large number of changes again. Again it's personal preference. If you like blowing fc's up in a bash, you might be willing to take the lower land rates for those rare, Ouch! That really did HURT! thread moments.

My personal feedback is that:
1. I like having a variety of setups, so that each of my characters feels unique to me.
2. I'm mainly here to pk, so I want all of those setups to be viable (all my chars were abs/combo prior to changes with limited weapon choices. Now I have some parry hunters, and use lots of new weapons.)
3. 1v1 (or even numbers) the speed of the game feels very slow to me. I stand and bash one another til beat, then fight at a wolf/tree for 2 minutes and the pk is only exciting towards the end.
4. 1vMany, it felt fast when I started playing again, but seems reasonable now in abs/combo. Not that hard to escape PK if you want to, once you get things down.
5. I feel, on drybones (19 str warrior / polearms), I'm always missing bashes without a str tea against dodge, but I am dominant when I have it.
6. I don't feel competitive against fc's, ever. If i'm low wound/batt vs a crit fc in dodge, I expect to die if I run a bash timer. I'll still do it on the 20% chance that I kill it (assuming no autowimpy), but I'm likely going to eat two spikes/fireballs if I miss. That feels weird to me.
7. I agree that the hit rates feel low against dodge/parry. It's very unpredictable fighting them, due to the low bash/hit rates. But, I'll stick around and assume the RNG will catch me up, or fight at mobs if I get bad rolls. Same as any setup
8. I'd rather see a lot of big changes happen quickly over a relatively short period of time. I'll find a way to pk in whatever the status quo is, and I don't have a ton of storage to devalue if you guys ruin a piece of gear

[Harun]

7. I agree that the hit rates feel low against dodge/parry. It's very unpredictable fighting them, due to the low bash/hit rates. But, I'll stick around and assume the RNG will catch me up, or fight at mobs if I get bad rolls. Same as any setup

This is the main thing I've found is really difficult with the changes. Group PK balance has actually felt fine to me. The main problem I've run into is fighting solo. If I retreat to mobs, land a bash on someone, and they parry me and the mobs, then there's not a real window for closing out kills. Seeing that window is what keeps me out when outnumbered and low.

Going back to the other page and comments from others, I also don't agree that bash should guarantee two bashed rounds. Dodge (and maybe combo) would become completely untenable.

[Eol]

I'm trying to look through weapons - not for if I think its right, but for if I think its internally consistent. I'm getting interrupted a lot so I'm just going to post what I've seen so far.

-I started by looking at 2 handed combo.
-Recent history:
(a) tridents were trash
(b) leatherleaf was not great, but compared to what you got with tridents it had quite a bit more defense while still having amusing traits
(c) iron shod staff was briefly insane due to being a poor man's almost DST, like how silver sword was ridiculously close to razor sword

-Currently:
(a) Ironshod staff serves no purpose. Its not that it isn't ...balanced against leatherleaf. Its just the leatherleaf traits are on the whole useful. I can't create a situation where someone should use an iron shod. The simple truth is until the recent kerfuffle I don't think anyone would have ever called it a high tier weapon.

(b) If you can get a spear, you probably should use spears instead of staves - just overall. That's not necessarily unfair since one loads in shops and one loads in smobs.

(c) The game has never really known how to address the fact that spears and short blades are always great weapons AND they have charge/stab. You would think the special attack would count against them, but it never does.

(d) Without taking into account charge - heavy hitting gold spear looks pretty reasonable when shown line by line against tridents and staves. It has ups and downs. My understanding is the focus has always been damage with sacrifices made in other categories.

(e) But "red and gold spear" is too good... Do other weapons outclass it in a trait? Yes, but overall its balance of traits shine more than any other combo non-rare 2 handed weapon. My testing is limited and I'm open to being told I'm wrong - but it has a lot more PB than tridents and the PB/4 to bash game helps close the gap even though it weighs less. Wimpy at least "red and gold" splits the difference between the 2 combo tridents in the bash calculator. Perhaps brave that difference goes away. Red and gold is just overall very good against other classes not even considering that it charges.

[Meren]

Presets for the bash data:

Code: Select all

a full metal helmet and visor
a tunic of finely-crafted chain
an earthen brown mantle
a pair of riveted chainmail sleeves
a sturdy pair of full leather gauntlets
a set of riveted chainmail leggings
a pair of lissome leather boots with metal capped toes
a gold ring delicately carved with ivy
a gold ring delicately carved with ivy
a torc of gleaming steel
a torc of gleaming steel
a sungwood bracelet
a sungwood bracelet
a bronze belt of odd design

Str:	19	Int:	12	Wil:	12	Dex:	17	Con:	19

Weapon %		99
Mood	Brave	
Ride	Level 7	
Race	Human	
Extra Weight		5

a red and gold tasseled spear....71 84 15.4 5d5(6d5) 30.47810325 vs 145db (brave) 65% vs 100db (wimpy)

a gold-chased war spear..........70 70 15.8 6d5(7d5) 30.1487816 vs 145db (brave) 65% vs 100db (wimpy)

a leatherleaf staff.................73 82 14.5 4d8 21.86359148 vs 145db (brave) 65% vs 100db (wimpy)

a darkened steel trident.........77 79 15.5 6d6 37.03016213 vs 145db (brave) 65% vs 100db (wimpy)

a blue steel trident...............69 72 15.8 8d4 29.53264242 vs 145db (brave) 65% vs 100db (wimpy)

a barbed steel trident............71 68 16 6d5 33.02646381 vs 145db (brave) 65% vs 100db (wimpy)

Numbers only agree with Eol. Why use any 2h weapon that isn't a spear, or a DST.

[Aureus]

Update: Added abs% back to dodge pieces: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13929&p=122572#p122572

Re: polearms vs spears, those are the wrong stats I believe, Meren. I didn't go update my original tables in the announce posts when we tweaked combo polearms. Check the stats here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

The polearms have a better combination of bash and damage than the spears do. The OB is a little less and they don't charge. 1-handed weapons are a bit superior, but that is intended since they require you to get shield parry as well, so polearms offer more flexibility with your pracs. I'm happy to take another look if I am missing something, though.

[Eol]

The linked stats are identical to the values I used and identical to Meren's values I believe.

Red and Gold spear outbashes Blue Steel slightly.
Blue Steel slightly outhits Red and Gold.
Barbed outbashes Red and Gold.
Red and Gold has the same damage as as barbed.
But Red and Gold crushes them both defensive through its parry and that same parry is what allows it to draw so close to both of them with bash. If you add enough OB and PB to a weapon you can overcome a weight difference. And it charges.

I'm not trying to be obtuse. What I'm trying to argue is that if we were to overall rank a weapon based on how it did in individual categories - Red and Gold is solidly a stronger weapon based on its overall versatility. It is solid everywhere while tridents are both weak on defense.

Other thoughts
-Damn, throwing knives got upped. They should now hit solid defense like spike does...
-Blue steel scimitar serves no purpose in its current stats.
-Long blades / shining silver / 1 handed axes for the most part make a lot of sense. Am I crazy or is oddly curved longsword off by like 1 point or 0.1 weight or something. I see how silver sword and brass fit, I&G is in its own category, but something about OCL seems off.
-Damn, damage is blowing up. When I was growing up finely axe was 5d6 and 10 lbs.
-Bring back the oddly curved greatsword name. I don't care what the stats are. It was beautiful.

Negatives:
There was no reason for blue tasseled to be made obsolete. This weapon is an institution. For some reason through the history of the game people always add some new weapon and make it better than everything else in the game. In 1-2 years someone else returns the classics back to the top. Blue tasseled will be back. It survived Drakavrea. It will survive this travesty (<-This last sentence was more for comic relief. I've refrained from posting throughout most of this and tried to keep an open mind. That said, literally like 21 years ago I first saw a BT spear and said "what is this" and Eleanor herself said "don't use it, it sucks!". That's how old this weapon is).

Don't even get me started on Dreadlord shirts. Dreadlords should use rank 8 human shirts. They have the greatest gift in the game. Almost no rules. Kill everyone. Clan weaves. No taint. That's all you need.